Episode 14: Let’s Get Curious
Robbie Shaw:
This is Champagne Problems, where we come together to explore the gray areas of drinking. This is a judgment free zone where we can all take a look at how we make decisions about our relationship with alcohol.
Sam Hampson:
Welcome back listeners to Champagne Problems. I'm back in the studio with Patrick and Robbie today, and we just had a phenomenal conversation with Ruby Warrington. Guys, throw out some highlights for us to pay attention to.
Robbie Shaw:
Yeah, that was incredible. The whole reason we sought her out was because of her resume of creating the phrase sober curious, and then implementing it in her journey, and now writing books of the same title. And she's got podcasts, and she creates events in New York, and she's got a website. I mean, she's just all over the place in this world.
So she has been at the top of our list of trying to get her on here, and now we have, and it did not disappoint. It was fantastic.
Patrick Balsley:
Yeah. Knowing who she is and what she's been doing and her public persona, I knew that our missions were in alignment. This conversation with her really exceeded any type of expectations I had, and it was fantastic.
Sam Hampson:
For our listeners, if you have ever contemplated taking notes from this podcast, today's episode would be the one to do it with. I know I have notes of all the new language to use with the same concepts I've been mulling over for 10 years. So, super intriguing, super eloquent, and just a really great place to start lots of takeaways, and hope you guys enjoy.
Ruby Warrington Discusses the Sober Curious Lifestyle
Robbie Shaw:
Here's our conversation with Ruby Warrington. Welcome to Champagne Problems.
Ruby Warrington:
Hi, thank you so much for having me.
Robbie Shaw:
Absolutely. We are delighted to have you on. We have known of you, and your name, and the things that you've been doing for quite a while now.
So, as many times as I imagine you've had to explain this, would you mind starting from the top on your backstory of what led you into a sober curious journey?
Ruby Warrington:
Yeah, sure. So, it's been 10 years now that I've been sober curious. It was around 2011, I started questioning my drinking. And it was very internal, very private. I'm sure many people have been there. In fact, I know many people are there.
And the questions with things like, am I drinking too much, why do I sometimes feel so much pressure to drink, is drinking really worth it for the hangovers, what is too much drinking, what's a drinking problem? These sorts of questions, which many people who would consider themselves to be normal social drinkers will have asked themselves at some point. There's the classic, waking up really hung over, I'm never drinking again, give it two days, maybe just a glass of wine. You know that?
And this is many, many, many more people that won't ever find their way to a recovery program, to rehab, or even to the kind of a rock bottom that might be the wake up call that they need to address their drinking. But 10 years ago no one was really talking about that, at least not obviously. And I felt very shy, nervous, embarrassed to ask any of these questions out loud.
After a few years I did go to a couple of AA meetings, but I didn't necessarily see my experience reflected there. The stories I was hearing, the situations that people had got into, the relationships that people had with drink and other substances were not reflective of my drinking at all. I would have considered myself a normal social drinker, never more than four nights a week, never on a Monday, never during the day, unless it was Christmas or holiday or whatever, what looked from the outside like normal drinking.
And when I did talk to friends about things like, "I think I'm going to cut back, or I'm thinking about maybe even quitting for a few months.", the typical response would be, "But you don't have a problem." If anything, people would be like, "But you never even look drunk." I never blacked out. I wasn't that person. And so it was very hard for me to square this internal dissonance I had with what the outside world was projecting on to my drinking.
It was about five years into this process that I had really been finding huge benefits from taking longer and longer breaks from alcohol. I did my first dry January in 2014, to then maybe a couple of months, six weeks off, maybe a couple of months off. And every time I took a longer break from drinking I realized how much better I felt without alcohol. And yet, the overarching narrative in the popular mainstream culture was that drinking is a necessary part of living a successful, happy, relaxed, vibrant social life, right?
And so it took so so long of listening to and trusting my own experience to be able to confidently take a step back and say, "No, I'm not going to be engaging with this anymore." Because, like I said, I never hit that rock bottom which meant I had to stop, which meant it made it obvious that my drinking was a problem.
When I think back now to people saying, "But you don't have a drinking problem.", my response now would be, "Well, can you define problem, please?" Because the spectrum of experience behind those two words is vast, right? Problem drinking could be hangovers that mean you're not really present for your kids in the morning. That could be a drinking problem. Right? It doesn't have to be any worse than that for you to address your drinking.
It got to a point where I really started to feel like I can't be the only one who's experiencing this. And at the time I was running a quite popular wellness platform here in New York, and had been hosting retreats and events and all sorts of things, and approached a meditation teacher named Biet Simkin, who I knew had 12 step recovery, about whether she'd be interested in hosting what I was going to call a Sober Curious event.
Because that's the term I had come up with for this questioning process I had been in. It had been a question of actually getting curious, like why do I always pick up a drink in these situations, why is it so hard for me not to drink when these people are around, what is too much for me, is that one beer? Maybe that's too much for me.
Sober curious was designed very specifically to be super open ended and non judgmental, and very much an invitation to just look at it, rather than just continuing to drink blindly just because it's what we do.
So yeah, that's the story behind it. And then I started hosting events in New York. 100 people came to the first one. Within a couple of years we were having 300 people show up, and I was like, okay, it was not just me.
Robbie Shaw:
Can you pinpoint the inspiration behind your decision to actually try that sober January, or to actually stop drinking? What was the kicker that went from this internal dialogue to actually taking action? Was there anything specific that inspired you to take action on it?
Ruby Warrington:
There was. I wrote about this in the first book. I had a job as a featured editor, like a magazine journalist in the UK, before I moved here in 2012, here being the US. And I got sent on a yoga retreat as an assignment, like a weekend long yoga retreat in Ibiza, of all places, which many people know is like the party capital of Europe. And typically, my visits to Ibiza had been alcohol saturated, hedonistic experiences. So I was going to Ibiza to a yoga retreat, and there wasn't any alcohol being served.
I arrived there on Friday morning, and was there through Sunday night. We went out for dinner on the last night as a group, and I assumed that everyone would order a glass of wine with dinner because it was the end of the retreat. Nobody ordered any wine, and I was so uncomfortable. And it really shocked me how hard it was for me to sit at this table and have dinner with these people without a glass of wine.
It might sound like a minor thing, but it just was a real eye opening moment. Then going into work on Monday feeling so alive, so excited about the week to come, so free of anxiety, whereas my typical Monday walk into work would have just been dread.
Sam Hampson:
I think I'm a slower learner, Ruby, because I had very similar experiences, but I had to have quite a lot of them.
Ruby Warrington:
Oh, yeah. Me too.
Sam Hampson:
Stumbling into a lot of Mondays or Wednesdays or Thursdays going, what's different, why do I feel better, why is this more clear, why am I more present? And it took me a long time to pinpoint that that was the difference, and that that could have that big of an impact.
It didn't make sense to me. I kept trying to think of, what have I put in my body that's making me feel better? Because that's the way, right, is we do things that make us feel better and use things that make us feel better. And it took me a while to realize I can leave this thing out and feel better as a result.
And that was with even having questioned my relationship with alcohol quite a lot, very similarly to your story, just a ton of internal dialogue that did not at all match what people were saying around me and did not really elicit a great response when I would say it out loud. In fact, it made me feel even more weird about it.
And so even with those two separate experiences it probably took about two years of fumbling through weekend social events to reconcile that things were totally open and possible without alcohol, in fact, could feel way better. And also that if it doesn't work for me, then it is a problem. It doesn't need to be problematic drinking, it's just causing me problems, even if that problem is being groggy or having a headache in the morning. That's a problem for me, because I can't go to yoga.
Ruby Warrington:
Exactly. And like I said, I think it was the end of 2010. I didn't quit quit until about three years ago. So, it wasn't like from that morning onwards a switch flicked and I was like, oh, I don't need this anymore, life's so much better without it. Oh, no. We're talking about a lifetime's conditioning around alcohol, all of those neural pathways. Alcohol is how you relax, alcohol is how you socialize, alcohol is what makes you popular, alcohol is why people like you, alcohol makes you fit in.
I had to slowly and painstakingly, over the years that followed that, really work hard to write new stories for myself about alcohol. And that's not a one and done, you have to be out there doing it, practicing it, and really consciously aware of what's going on.
Robbie Shaw:
I want to know more about what that looks like for you. How did you rewrite those stories?
Ruby Warrington:
Starting hosting the events, and publicly speaking on this stuff, and inviting other people into the conversation definitely gave me a ton of, I guess you could say accountability around like, okay, I'm really staking a claim for this, I really want to hold myself to this. But prior to that I write in both Sober Curious books and speak a lot on the importance of what I call sober firsts, which is like, doing all the things that I would usually use alcohol for without a drink, seeing how it goes.
Most of the time that's really, really uncomfortable. Sometimes it's surprisingly brilliant and transcendent, always tons of amazing information. It's literally like... You're chopping new pathways through the forest by going to a wedding sober, by doing a sober vacation, by going on a bachelorette sober, by having a Friday night dinner with a friend sober. Putting myself through all those situations again and again and again and again, it's a bit like a yoga practice or a meditation practice.
At first it feels really awkward and uncomfortable and like, why would I do this, and I can't see the benefit of this. But over time it starts to become more and more natural. And yeah, it literally has been a question of just not drinking. But bringing intentionality to that, bringing conscious awareness to everything that's happening around not drinking, how do I feel, what thoughts are coming up, what feelings are coming up, why am I so uncomfortable, asking all those questions, which is what being sober curious is.
I think a lot of people think of sober curious as sobriety light or something, and I don't see it like that at all. It's about giving yourself permission to actually answer those questions for yourself and get tons of information about your relationship with alcohol, so that, going forward, you can actually make choices that are right for you. And that can look different for many people.
Personally, for me, it means no alcohol at all now, but not because I've banned it, because I have discovered that I have no use for it in my life.
Making Decisions Towards a More Mindful Life
Patrick Balsley:
I've known who you are for a couple years now, and since we started this podcast I've been digging into your stuff and your books and your social media stuff. And I get the vibe that spiritual practices are a big part of how you stay consciously aware of this stuff, and it cultivates your practice and your curiosity and helps you pose these questions. What do those spiritual practices look like for you, what do you think complements this whole process for you in regards to spirituality?
Ruby Warrington:
I love the fact you've asked that. For me, it's very interesting. I launched this platform, The Numinous, when I first moved to New York in 2012. And honestly, it was engaging with all of the practices that I was writing about there. And this is everything from yoga, meditation, breath work, sound healing, acupuncture, tarot, astrology. But it was engaging with all these practices that really brought to the surface, like this is a thing, you need to look at this.
And it also threw into very stark contrast how I felt like all of these practices were helping me get more conscious of myself, my feelings, my awareness, the world around me, what I wanted to create and who I wanted to be in the world. And then every time I used alcohol, all of that got shut down. I could feel it just shutting down. I could feel myself being separated from this becoming that was occurring in my life in this other area.
So it was engaging with all of those practices that I just mentioned that really helped me, that became tools that I could use to actually build the kind of life I wanted to be living. So the things that I still use to this day, I meditate every day, I do yoga every other day. And I just do it at home. I use an online service. I don't go to a studio or anything fancy. Those are my two anchor points.
Because a big part of sober curiosity is being able to be in this observer space in your mind. So you're really consciously aware of the actions you're taking, the reactions that are occurring when things happen in your life, the choices that you're making, the words that you're using, the words that you're speaking to yourself. Meditation and yoga are both specifically designed to help cultivate a connection to that higher self perspective in a way.
And you know what's really interesting, there are many people in my life who have got sober curious with me, and it's been a stepping stone to them for 12 step recovery programs. Because what they uncovered through their sober curiosity was actually, this problem feels like a more serious problem that I could really use some help and support with, and I think that's awesome.
I've heard a lot of talk about a higher power, and I'm like, well, funny, I think my higher power is maybe astrology, which many people think of as being so woo woo and out there. It has such a bad reputation, but honestly, I just use it as a practice to help me tune into the fact that I am part of something so much bigger that I have absolutely no control of, and that I can align myself with or I can choose to try to control or manipulate. And so, for me, astrology is my higher power.
I just do a daily check in, what's happening, where is my chart, what's going on, what transits are happening. And it helps me just remember I'm part of a bigger unfolding and all I can do is just keep showing up. So yoga, meditation, astrology, are the things that I use daily.
Sam Hampson:
I think I was really drawn to one of the pieces that you wrote, the idea of this being a judgment free and imperfect journey. And I think that's where a lot of people get really scared, and where I got really scared is I didn't drink for about two years as a result of a lot of the questions and answers.
And then when I did want to have a glass of wine I felt an immense pressure or guilt that somehow I had undone something, or that I had put out there in the world that I'm not drinking right now, or I don't like alcohol, or whatever it was, and then having to justify if I ever stepped back close to it again, if I ever had a glass of wine, and just having a really strange reaction from people, just, "Oh, so we're drinking again?", or like, "Oh, so we're allowed to have wine again?"
I always had a hard time with, if I go out to dinner with a friend, no one ever questions what I order on the menu as far as food, but they really have a hard time with what liquid I'm ordering, and I always had trouble with that. But I think it was a result of answering a lot of those rhetorical questions that would come up internally. And that's where I encourage most of my clients when they're starting to explore this, is don't just ask the rhetorical questions and leave them open ended and then go do what you do anyway. Just answer them.
If it's like, well, what could be so bad about it, is it really problematic if I don't have a DUI, or what could this hurt, or what's two beers? It's like, you haven't answered any of those. Answer them.
Ruby Warrington:
And sometimes the only way to answer, what's the problem if I have two beers, is have two beers and see if there's a problem.
Sam Hampson:
It's like, maybe nothing horrible happens. But I think the beautiful thing about the way that you package this is, what could happen instead without alcohol?
Patrick Balsley:
It's such a healthier perspective to look at this from, I feel like.
Ruby Warrington:
I feel like for anyone who actually is in this to create a long term shift, whether that means no alcohol or just a better relationship with alcohol, this is a very sustainable approach. Because you can't unlearn, you can't unknow the things that you learn through being sober curious, right? Circumstances might change. It might be that at a different point in your life you can have a glass of wine and it doesn't impact you in the same negative way.
I'm definitely really into the non judgment, I'm really into the not shaming people for wherever they're at, and just giving people the agency to make decisions that they feel are right for them, and also to make mistakes sometimes, and that to not mean that you failed, and to not mean that you're weak. Also, really recognizing, alcohol is one of the five most addictive substances on the planet, right?
Robbie Shaw:
Oh, yeah.
Ruby Warrington:
The odds are stacked against you. If you've reached a place where you feel that it's something that you're maybe a bit too attached to, the odds are stacked against you being able to keep that substance in your life.
And a lot of the time for people who aren't at the very problematic end of the alcohol abuse spectrum, the mental energy that goes into moderating is sometimes a problem in and of itself. Even if the alcohol is not causing you the problem, the mental gymnastics around trying to keep this thing in your life, the amount of time and energy that that takes up.
I did a podcast episode with Bill Shufelt. He's the founder of Athletic Brewing, which is my favorite alcohol free craft beer. I love Athletic Brewing. It's so cool. And he put it really well. He's like, "Alcohol can create this invisible glass ceiling in your life that you don't even realize is there until you remove it." And it's because it's like you're mining for diamonds in a way. You don't know what you're missing until you've discovered it. It's a strange one, but yeah.
Sam Hampson:
That's where I felt like it was very limiting for me. Like you mentioned, the first bachelorette party that I went to sober, for years I had told myself that was not something that was possible or remotely fun alcohol free. And that's so limiting and so sad if that's true. And I was present the whole time, and I woke up feeling great the next morning, and all of those things.
I was able to be totally present and learn about myself, that I actually could get up and dance sober and I actually could order pizza when they probably needed to calm down and eat something and I got to learn that I wasn't actually as limited as alcohol had told me I was and that's a beautiful learning experience.
Ruby Warrington:
Yeah, it's extremely empowering. I talk about this often, how I started experimenting with alcohol around the age of 15. And then I took a big break in my later teens and came back to it at the end of my college experience, and then went into it fairly heavily from then, just because it was very much part of the culture of the UK journalism scene that I was coming into in my early 20s.
If you've been, essentially, outsourcing your confidence to alcohol from the age of 15 and you think about how insecure most of us are when we're 15. We've suddenly got this adult body, we've got no idea what to do with it, we've got no idea... There's always these societal rules about what we should do with it, like we should be hooking up with people, we should be dating people, we should be going to parties, we should be looking like this and dressing like this. But it's all very confusing.
And then, of course, at that point, along comes alcohol, just to ease out all of those kinks and make us feel like we fit in, and make us feel like we're not awkward, and make us feel like we know what we're doing, even though we obviously don't. And so at that point, and speaking for myself, of course, I learned, oh, alcohol is where I get my confidence, alcohol is how I fit in, alcohol gives me a role in this group.
We have to disprove that, and I think having my first sober bachelorette was probably one of the biggest challenges, but that being said, one of the most empowering experiences of my whole sober curious life because, yeah, I was the one they couldn't get off karaoke singing Britney Spears' Toxic, obviously.
Robbie Shaw:
It lends itself to the ongoing misconception. I am in recovery, and I haven't had a sip in 15 years, but I took it down that path where there was a major rock bottom and major internal, external consequences. So, I'm a little bit on that side of things, but I've said this, where the first time I took a sip of whatever, it just felt like it filled this hole or this void, and all of a sudden I felt comfortable, and I could talk to girls, and I could talk to people.
Well, we often think that I was maybe born with that, or there was something wrong with me. No, I was fucking 14 years old. I was scared to death of everything, naturally, just like most people. So, of course, alcohol filled that hole and that void. That's what alcohol does, no matter what age you are.
Ruby Warrington:
Exactly. And especially at that age, which I guess is why we have laws around like, you don't drink until you're 21. But what happens when you ban something? People just want more of it. A lot of time parents will ask me, what should I tell my kids about drinking, what should I teach my kids about alcohol? I'm like, well, how do you drink? Because that's what you're teaching them.
And it's very difficult in a society where alcohol is so glamorized and so widely publicized and marketed as what makes you sexy and cool and attractive and one of the gang, and then tell people, but you can't drink until you're 21. Because those are all the things you want to be when you're a kid.
Again, I'm not a prohibitionist by any means. I'm like, let's just give people all of the information that they need to be really empowered and know that they're making the right choice for them. That's it.
Starting the Journey of Becoming Sober Curious
Robbie Shaw:
How important in your own journey have friends or partners that have also taken this sober curious thing seriously been in your own journey in terms of accountability and motivation and inspiration? You don't have to answer this, but do you have people around you that hold you accountable and that you're like, yeah, let's do this together, and how much has that helped this process for you, or has this been a journey that you've just done alone?
Ruby Warrington:
It has been very self directed. What I will say is, it all started kicking off for me, mentally, in 2011. I moved to New York 2012. That's when I started this project, The Numinous. And so I had this natural breaking point from my whole old social life. All the people I had done my heavy fun drinking with in London, I was not hanging out with these people regularly anymore. And I was meeting a whole lot of new people who were into yoga and green juice and sound bots.
So I wasn't necessarily surrounded by people saying, "Hey, we need to quit drinking.", I was surrounded by people who just weren't drinking. And it was like a revelation that you could have a social life and have loads of connections and be part of something without alcohol really being a major player.
Robbie Shaw:
Welcome to America, right?
Ruby Warrington:
Right. I mean, there is a difference. It's interesting. Both the UK and America have big binge drinking culture. However, one big difference I did notice when I went out for dinner in New York, number one, no one ordered a bottle of wine ever. Ordering a bottle of wine at dinner was like, oh my god, we're going wild tonight. People might have a glass or one cocktail.
In the UK, if you didn't order a bottle of wine, it'd be like, don't be so boring. And then the other thing, if I didn't order an alcoholic drink at all, no one would bat an eyelid, no one would make me feel bad about it. So that felt very different.
I guess the major thing in terms of relationships was my husband who I had always done loads of fun drinking with. We were each other's favorite drinking buddy. We always had a really fun time. He was just really respectful of me wanting to take a break, even though at first he was a little bit sad about it, or perhaps I think we both felt a bit sad about moving on from those fun times.
And I think that's very natural as well, to feel some kind of grief around like, oh, that part of myself maybe is not coming with me for the rest of the journey. And it's very natural. And I don't think we give ourselves enough permission to have compassion and even to mourn the fun parts, because, of course, there were fun times. It wasn't all bad.
Of course it was fun. It's very natural to feel sad about not experiencing that anymore. But over time, the more he and I would go out on date nights and I wouldn't be drinking, and that he'd keep drinking, and then slowly he'd be like, just having one drink, and then he wouldn't have any drinks, to the point where he now doesn't drink at all.
He's come with me on the journey, but not through me pressuring him as to like, you've got to stop drinking, more just through, I don't know, he just matched my vibe, I suppose.
Robbie Shaw:
Pretty cool.
Ruby Warrington:
We've got a really beautiful relationship. I'm so so grateful that I married my best friend. I've been so over the moon, I suppose, that actually we get on even better without the alcohol and our relationship feels even closer now because we're just more present with each other.
Sam Hampson:
I found it to be very unpopular and unsexy to be the one to be like, I think I'm going to remove alcohol and no longer have cocktails when we go out. Like... boo. And similarly, my whole family's in the UK, and so I very much grew up with that culture of like, we can have one, right, take a drink, something. "Let me put something in your hand. You're sure you don't just want like a wee wine, something? Can I give you something?"
Paining the host that they can't give me a drink. And none of that is fun. But what you said early on in this is so important, of just trusting that inner dissonance and trusting that this may not make sense to anyone else, but I know for sure it's making sense to me, because I feel more congruent, I feel better physically, I feel better mentally, and just being able to trust yourself in that.
And I think I had a similar experience where my partner probably hasn't changed any of his drinking patterns, but has changed the questioning, the intention, the awareness of what's happening when he's drinking, and has wholeheartedly been like whatever works for you.
There is that connection and way more intentional conversation about it. Because the word that you used, outsourcing, that's where a lot of my questioning has happened, is just what all am I outsourcing, because it's not just confidence for me. It's also making things fun that aren't fun to me. Sorry, everyone listening, that I've ever done this with, but tailgating is not fun.
But those were the types of things where it felt like I was totally outsourcing or pretending or masking and just being like, it'll be fun because we'll be drinking. And it helped me tolerate things.
There were so many places in my life where I wasn't putting up with things, I was loving things. I was loving yoga, I was loving going to the beach, I was loving reading by myself, right? And none of that's sexy or fun, but it felt so much more congruent. And just having people around you almost admire that pioneership, even though it's a really lonely process when you're the one doing it.
Ruby Warrington:
It's one of the things I do love about social media, is that it's made it so much easier to find people who are going to reflect back to you that you're okay for making these other choices. There are lots of things I don't like about social media, but that's the one thing that I'm on board with.
Everything you shared resonates with me too. We live in a world that's very much geared towards extroverts. I just recently watched Susan Cain's TED talk. It's from a few years ago. She wrote the book Quiet, which is about the power of introverts. And she talked about how even in schools now, rather than having kids sit in rows, they have people sit in groups around tables, and pretty much every project is a group project. Even writing projects are group projects. And she's like, please stop this.
Some people work way better and are much more comfortable doing stuff on their own, and that doesn't mean that they're dysfunctional or there's anything strange or odd or off with them. They're just more introverted, and they need alone time to recharge and fill up, and that's what makes them feel good.
Alcohol enables a lot of more introverted people to play the extroverted role, and to, again, fit in. And what do we all want? We all want to fit in. Introverts need to fit in too, right? That's a basic human need, to feel accepted, to feel like I have a place here, I belong, I'm needed, right? Alcohol is the go-to to help us all be more extroverted.
Sam Hampson:
It's cool, though, because when you remove it, just for that night, you get to learn if that's something you actually like doing or not, and then you get to make a decision about whether you ever want to do that thing again or not. If I don't enjoy tailgating without alcohol, then the truth is, I don't enjoy tailgating.
Ruby Warrington:
Exactly. But you might if you were tailgating on a beach and you could go off for half an hour and walk on the surf by yourself, or take a little dip out and then come back, see what the group is doing.
Sam Hampson:
That sounds amazing. But the point is I would never have known that if I'd kept drinking through it, right? I would just keep going and drinking, and it would be fine, but there's no depth because I never get to discover that that activity is not fun for me, it's just tolerable with alcohol.
And that was the opportunity removing it gave to me, was learning about myself and what I really enjoy and what things I just tolerate. And there are still times where I just go tolerate something with a glass of wine, but I know that that's what I'm doing, and I know I want to leave soon.
Ruby Warrington:
Yeah, and that's fine. I think that's absolutely fine, because sometimes we do have a sense of duty, and sometimes there are things we're obligated to do, and sometimes maybe a glass of wine or even just having something to hold and a sip or two is going to be something you can use in that situation. But if you know that's what you're doing, then you're not gaslighting yourself.
Patrick Balsley:
I think the old adage, the answer is in the question, that's the whole bit of wisdom that's behind all this, and sober curious, and just being able to ask yourself the right questions to extract the truth of what you're really doing and what your relationship to alcohol really looks like.
Ruby Warrington:
And it is very much like, yeah, you have to actually be walking the path. I mean, I've got two books, great, read the books, but you're only really going to be able to answer the questions by actually living it.
Sam Hampson:
I can give you a script, but the chances are, if I give you that, it's not authentic to you, you're probably not going to use it. And the whole point is that you just go try it. And you might fail. You might get there and be like, oh, I can't do it and order Gin Martini, but just go try it, and then every time you try it you learn things and you just collect data about what works and what doesn't.
Understanding Your Relationship With Alcohol
Robbie Shaw:
Let's transition just a little here. I would love to talk about labels. And we touched on this in the beginning where we were discussing the external perspective, looking at someone who's making some changes, curious about changes. And, like you said, there's such a vast spectrum of drinking or relationships with alcohol. I would love to talk about the word alcoholic.
I got to a place where I needed to confront that and admit and accept that I had a relationship with alcohol that was going nowhere. In fact, it was just going straight down. But I fought it for so long. I fought the fact that I was an alcoholic, or some definition that I had come up with of what an alcoholic was. It was always within reach, but I was never there, so I just kept pushing it out, pushing it out until finally it was like all right, man, you are one, even though I had been.
So the point is, alcoholic can take so many different meanings, and I wonder if the label and the subjective definition of that is perhaps harming people's efforts in making changes.
Ruby Warrington:
Well, I think, as far as words go, it's probably one of the most stigmatized words out there. For so long we've just had such negative associations with the word alcoholic. Immediately, for a lot of people, it brings up a vision of somebody passed out in the gutter covered in their own vomit. And if you haven't experienced that yourself, then it's very hard to want to give yourself that label.
On the other hand, what you said about actually admitting and owning up can be extremely liberating for somebody who's been clinging on to the alternative identity, which is just out of control drunk, which is going to be the thing that finds you in the gutter. I don't know, a big part of this whole sober curious movement has been about destigmatizing conversations around addiction, and actually saying alcohol addiction can look many different ways, like we've been talking about.
An alcohol problem can look very different to different people. And I actually see more people who are not necessarily program sober using the word alcoholic now, and I do actually think that that word is beginning to be less triggering for people, and maybe less of a barrier to people finding help, particularly in the 12 step programs, just because we're starting to be more open and recognizing that alcohol, that addiction, rather, is something that impacts all of our lives.
On the other hand as well I remember reading a statistic that was something like only 10% of people who perceive alcohol as being a problem for them will ever go to a rehab or seek recovery, which meant that nine out of 10 people who are having these sober curious questions are not going to go there. And I think that's partly to do with the stigmatization also.
So allowing people or encouraging people to self identify with their drinking, in whatever way, makes them feel comfortable. I just call myself a non drinker. And I talk about being a normal social drinker, I'll put that in air quotes, because I'm like, I was a problem drinker. My problem drinking just didn't look like what I thought problem drinking was.
I still wouldn't use the term alcoholic for myself, because it is so closely associated with 12 step recovery, and I'm not a participant in that program. And I also think that is a specific path that has a very specific legacy, and practice, and fellowship, and I don't want to steal from that, in a way. Labels are tricky, for sure, and can be a barrier, and can also be an identity and very helpful. It really depends on the person, I think.
Robbie Shaw:
I guess it's almost like a two part strategy in your mission and our mission where we're just trying to normalize this curiosity, but there also has to be some sort of universal understanding of what it means to either be an alcoholic or to have an issue, or to not even have an issue, just to... drink. What does that mean? What does that look like? And it is very individual, it is very personalized, but I don't think the public thinks that way, at least majority-wise.
Patrick Balsley:
That's why I love the definition of addiction that I like to use, which is continued use despite negative consequences, because it's that broad... Everybody can identify with that on some level, with some behavior, even if you're not using anything.
Sam Hampson:
Well, I think that's what's important. It's not a this or that. It's not abuse or dependence anymore, right? It's substance use on a spectrum.
I, typically, at least in front of the clients that I see, I'm only looking at symptoms they're reporting. I'm not going and finding them and naming them for them. Come to me with what questions you have about your use, and know that that doesn't mean that you're committing to lifelong sobriety, and it doesn't mean anything other than where we go, and what journey you choose, and the things you start to question, and the practices you put in place.
Because if it's anything other than that and I put myself in that, I'm just scared to fail, or I'm scared about what guilt might come up if I do choose to drink again, like I did after two years, and I wasn't having negative consequences anymore. And just wanting people to have that space to go, somewhere between a treatment program that's impatient and in a meeting or just their best friend's couch. It's just a place to ask questions, discover, be guided in what questions are important to ask.
Ruby Warrington:
It does require a level of self honesty and a level of integrity, and that's a really important thing to talk about as well. We all know when we're lying to ourselves, as much as we would like to pretend we don't sometimes. That's one thing I do appreciate about the first step, admitting I'm powerless. That is incredibly powerful, because you're basically saying, no more lying to myself about this. And I do think that's an important humbling step.
If you're going to get sober curious, do yourself the decency of being honest with yourself.
Robbie Shaw:
That concept has always been a little foreign for me. I've lived a life where I'm not very in tune and I'm not very internally reliable. Wake up one morning and I'm going to do this, and then two hours later I'm not doing that. For a long time that's what I grappled with. And I do think that is a common theme.
I don't think everybody out there is just motivated, and ready to roll, and looking internal. I look at your path, and I love it, because you were seeking connection with yourself and others, an authentic connection, and that's admirable and fantastic, but how do we get other people to do that? How do we get other people to think that way? And I do think that's the way in to get this conversation going.
Ruby Warrington:
You just make it okay for people to be where they're at. And this is why I consistently talk about meditation, and I know that that message is so out there in the world. And so many people have tried meditation, like me. Very interestingly, I got sober curious around exactly the same time I did my first yoga retreat, first meditation sessions.
But this practice, I almost want it to have another word. I don't even like mindfulness either, because both just sound a bit like, I don't know... wishy-washy. But if there was another word to describe meditation, which is just simply the practice of knowing what you think, or just being aware of what you're thinking, it is such an important and powerful tool for people.
And we live in this world of distractions, and everyone being an expert, wanting to tell us what to think, wanting to tell us how to feel, wanting to tell us how we should be feeling about a situation. So, again, this is one of the reasons I'm not a big fan of social media.
Being really conscious about what you consume in terms of media, social media, news, even the people that you're spending time with so that you can really start to develop a good, solid connection to like, what am I actually thinking, what do I actually really believe, what do I actually really think, what am I really feeling, which is great.
If you're having a coach or a therapist to help you through this process and be that mirror for you, it can be super, super valuable. And I feel really lucky that the community I met when I moved to New York were people who were all therapists and coaches. So I was around people who were having very conscious conversations, and who are really doing their "work", who are really invested in calling themselves out on their own bullshit and looking at their own conditioning and unraveling it and getting deep with that stuff.
Finding a community of other people who are willing to go there, to some of the darker, deeper places, can be really helpful. And actually, the second, The Sober Curious Reset, it takes you through 100 days of not drinking, and then each day has a little exercise, like it's a journaling exercise, or a thought experiment, or a conversation starter, that are designed to just get you more aware of like, what am I actually thinking right now?
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Robbie Shaw:
We usually like to leave our listeners, at the end of each episode, with three bits of wisdom from our guests. And if you could tag three specific things that you think are the most important kick starters to become sober curious, what would those be?
Ruby Warrington:
Okay. Number one, I would say write down all of the things that you would like to make space for in your life. Write down all the things that you never feel like you have time for, energy for, that you can't do because you're not confident enough. What are all the things you would like to attract in your life, or to experience, and just put them down on a piece of paper. And use that as a motivation for what you want to bring into your life.
A lot of the time when we're thinking about quitting drinking, I mean, quitting says it all. You're cutting something out, you're losing something, you're letting go of something. And having a really clear outline of what I want to make space for in my life, can be a really powerful incentivizer. So that would be one of them.
I do think having someone you can talk honestly to about what you're going through and what's coming out for you, whether that's a friend or a coach or a therapist, even if it's just one other person that you can really talk it out with. And it can be a friend. I think peer to peer support is one of the beautiful things about the 12 step programs. You're able to talk really honestly with people who are experiencing the same stuff.
If there's not a friend in your life or a family member, then maybe it is a coach, or maybe it is a therapist, but somebody that you can vocalize and get the stuff out of your head and into reality is also really important.
And then the third one is something we haven't really discussed, but I mentioned I love alcohol free beer. And, honestly, there's this whole movement now of alcohol free beverages, which, to me, has been such a useful, practical tool, especially in those early days of going to events or going to a barbecue or a dinner party or something. It just can be such a good placebo, but equally, just a really good way of shutting that conversation down, like, "What are you drinking?", "I'm drinking this."
So those would be my three things. Get really clear on what you want to make space for in your life, find somebody to be your running buddy, and then get into some of the AF, alcohol free options that are out there.
Robbie Shaw:
That was just fantastic. Everything about that conversation just falls right in line with what we're about, and we really appreciate you agreeing to participate. So thank you.
Ruby Warrington:
Well, thanks for having me on.
Robbie Shaw:
I just want to thank you on a personal note for using your experience to spark this movement and your vulnerability and your willingness to share this with everybody. So, thanks for being here. This has been awesome.
Robbie Shaw:
The information and opinion shared on this podcast are solely those of the hosts and guests and are not a substitute for medical advice. If you feel like you may need professional help, here are some resources. For the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration hotline call 1-800-662-4357 or visit smsa.gov. For listeners in the Charlotte, North Carolina Community, visit dilworthcenter.org, or call 704-372-6969, or visit theblanchardinstitute.com, or call 704-288-1097.