Episode 9: Punch Drunk Love
Robbie Shaw:
This is Champagne Problems where we come together to explore the gray areas of drinking. This is a judgment free zone where we can all take a look at how we make decisions about our relationship with alcohol. Welcome back, everybody. We are in the studio today recording Episode 9. We are discussing the topic of romantic relationships and relationships in general and the effect that alcohol has on them.
Today, we have got a special guest by the name of Dr. Lindsey Rodriguez. Dr. Rodriguez is a social psychologist and a graduate and undergraduate professor in the psychology department at the University of South Florida.
Sam Hampson:
I think this is an interesting topic. I was listening back to one of our other episodes where we touched on some of the reasons that I had removed drinking from my life for a period of time. And every time I look back to that phase, I always think of relationship turmoil and how much alcohol fueled it. Any small thing that was going on in the relationship would be blown up when alcohol was added to the situation.
So if we were both drinking, those issues became huge mountains where before it was a collection of pebbles. How do we get on the same page? What if we're not on the same page with our alcohol use and what's the good and bad and how do we do this correctly? How do we do it healthily?
Robbie Shaw:
I am super excited. When I think about my relationship with my wife, my wife and I met when I was drinking. But now I don't drink and she does. And so there was an interesting transition period.
Sam Hampson:
Patrick, what about you? Did you and your wife meet around alcohol while drinking? What's the story there?
Patrick Balsley:
No, my wife has never seen me drink. I was in recovery for about four years when my wife and I met. On our first date I was totally transparent with my history with alcohol. My wife doesn't drink much at all. She'll have a couple glasses of wine every now and then, but alcohol hasn't really played a major role in our relationship at all.
And that was something that she's always respected in my recovery. She didn't know anything about recovery and addiction before we met. It just wasn't part of her world. She's definitely taken an interest in what we're doing and what I do for work.
Dr. Lindsey Rodriguez on Social Drinking in Relationships
Robbie Shaw:
Dr. Lindsey Rodriguez, welcome to Champagne Problems.
Lindsey Rodriguez:
Hi, good morning.
Robbie Shaw:
This topic is super important and ended up coming up a lot in our previous episodes. Not only is it important, I think it's a very common topic. Everybody here is in a relationship. And I'm in a marriage. Patrick is in a marriage.
Digging into the effect alcohol has on a relationship, good and bad, is super important to our listeners. And I think it's something that we're all interested in learning more about. So that being said, Dr. Rodriguez, I'm interested to learn more about your research and what all you do down there at the University of South Florida.
Lindsey Rodriguez:
Thanks for having me. I'm a professor of psychology at USF. I study exactly the thing that you were talking about, how alcohol can be helpful and harmful to close relationships, and how people communicate about drinking as well as how they communicate about lots of other things in their relationship. And really trying to help people have healthier and happier relationships because we know that makes it more likely they will live happier and healthier lives.
Robbie Shaw:
What a mission. You're actually doing the work that gets trickled down to us that we apply to our work. It's really fascinating. So would you say that the majority of romantic relationships begin under the influence of alcohol? The other way of saying that would be, how often does alcohol play a role in dating?
Lindsey Rodriguez:
I think it's a great question. I don't have any data around that question, but I think anecdotally the vast majority of first and second and third dates probably involve drinking. It's definitely something that we consider a social lubricant in our society. It's something that opens us up a little bit and makes conversations flow a little bit easier.
And more importantly, we believe that alcohol makes conversations flow a little bit more easily, which makes it more likely that we'll drink. And as you guys have talked about in previous episodes, the way that we normalize drinking in every context makes drinking likely on many first dates.
Robbie Shaw:
In a former episode I told a story about how I'd never had sexual relationships without the influence of alcohol until I got sober. And so every date, even down to my girlfriend in eighth grade, I couldn't even be around a girl without alcohol. That's how I learned to begin a relationship with someone of the opposite sex.
I don't think drinking in the eighth grade with your girlfriend, is that good? It was fun. So I don't know if we can throw it into a good or bad category, but I'm certainly interested in knowing about the authenticity of a relationship if that's how it begins. What are your thoughts on that?
Lindsey Rodriguez:
I think that the fact that alcohol is a major part of many, many couples’ dating experiences isn't necessarily a good or bad thing by default. Just like how we talk about alcohol in general. It's not necessarily good or bad. It's how it's used and whether it's perceived as being a problem by either person in the relationship.
People talk about this in conversations about how drinking allows us to be our true selves. And your question about authenticity when people are dating and how alcohol plays a role in that if they are drinking a lot during their dates. I think that question is complex, right? Are we more ourselves when we drink? There's two really important parts to that. And one of them is true that it makes us more our true selves, but one of them is not.
So it's really important to understand whether we think that's true and what that means for our lives if it is. When people are drinking it reduces inhibition. So the things that we normally might think to ourselves, but might not say out loud, we are more likely to say out loud when we've been drinking. In that sense we are more likely to spit out the things that we either meant to say or didn't mean to say for better or worse.
In that way you could say that alcohol makes it more likely your true self might come out, but then in the way that alcohol just enhances what's salient in our environment, the alcohol myopia, that does not mean that we are more likely to be our true selves when we're drinking. So, for example, alcohol makes people more aggressive and there's lots of longitudinal and experimental and lab data to support that.
I don't think that everyone is their authentic true self as a super aggressive person. So, that people are more likely to get into a fight, or yell, or scream, or punch somebody when they're drunk, I don't think that that's our true selves trying to get out all the time and then we finally let it out when we've been drinking.
So to the extent that it helps people open up about their emotions or disclose about their lives and all of that is really helpful when people are beginning to date each other. But to the extent that it's becoming a binge drinking episode or just heavy drinking, it can be related to lots of negative consequences that people might regret the next day. The goal is to stay away from those types of drinking events and use alcohol in a way that enhances the conversation.
Robbie Shaw:
It makes me think of the authenticity piece. When I look back, I'm a fairly socially nervous person, but alcohol would calm that. So me coming out like I'm confident, and cool, and even flirtatious, is that my real self? I don't know. I wouldn't have done it without the alcohol, for sure.
Patrick Balsley:
That's where my head was going with this. It's almost like using alcohol as a positive reinforcement in the beginning stages of a relationship, it gives you confidence. It gives you the anxiolytic effects where you're not going to be as nervous. And I could see how this played a part in my addiction history in the past. It almost was like, “well, now I can use this and enter into these relationships.” And it sets a pretty unhealthy precedent for anything that's going to come down the pipe in the future.
I don't know where I'm going with this, but I feel like alcohol use in the beginning of any relationship, in that feeling of authenticity and vulnerability, it almost reinforces you to keep doing this if you want this relationship to be a success. Then when you pull the alcohol away or you're with somebody and you haven't had any drinks, there's that awkward tension and the, “oh, well, this isn't the same guy that I was on the date with.”
Sam Hampson:
I wonder about the dosing. Maybe early in the night that does put me more at ease, that does allow me to be more social, more fun until a point. And then if the drinking continues to increase I become less and less myself. I start to behave in ways that are really far out from my personality.
What are some of the things that you see as far as how alcohol can enhance and damage relationships? And I know that's complex, but just kind of big picture bullet points.
Lindsey Rodriguez:
I think real quick before I get to that, it's tied to that. To the extent that we can just have the mindset that you don't need alcohol when you're dating somebody, I think that can benefit lots of different things down the road. It's going to make you feel better because you don't feel like you need alcohol to have a successful dating experience or a successful relationship with that person.
There's lots of evidence to support that when people go on dates that are more activity focused that get your heart rate flowing, people tend to be more attracted to the person that they're with. And a lot of those things it's not as normative to be drinking. So I always say when people are like, “do you have any suggestions for types of dates to go on?” I typically say, do something active and you don't need to drink during those dates.
When every single date is not, “let's go to a bar and bar hop,” you're getting a variety of experiences with that person, getting to see them in different environments and you're doing it all almost exclusively without having to feel like you need to be drinking. So that can be a really good thing to keep in mind.
Patrick Balsley:
In our culture there's silos of dating culture. So there are those groups of people that will go rock climbing. But then you have those groups of people that are going to drink.
Lindsey Rodriguez:
You're right. And it all goes back to comfort. Most people get anxious before a first date, right? You're meeting somebody new. It could potentially be a relationship, there's this facet of it that's evaluative. Are they going to like me? Are they going to want another date?
And so we have this perception that alcohol is going to make us sexier, funnier, more attractive, all of these things that we want to be. And so it becomes a very safe thing to go to a place and drink. But I think it's good to think out of the box and not always fall back on it or depend on it.
The Importance of Perception in Social Drinking
Robbie Shaw:
Yeah. In the world of problematic drinking, it's all about developing a dependence. I believe that's the only way I can feel like I appeal to someone is to be funny, and be confident, and all those things. And then all of a sudden I'm dependent on it. And I don't know any other way.
Patrick Balsley:
Not to mention how for me I always used to seek out potential partners that would enable my drinking. Can you speak on that a little bit?
Lindsey Rodriguez:
I think there's a selection process by which heavy drinkers seek out other heavy drinkers. In that way, when relationships become established, people influence each other's drinking within a relationship, right? People tend to follow the same path. And if they don't, that's where you start to see that discrepancy and how much the couple is drinking. And that's where many times problems in the relationship can start.
Sam Hampson:
I'm thinking through situations where there are nights where if my fiancé is having a beer, I'm much more likely to contemplate having one than if he didn't. And just how much that influences - if they're grabbing another one even if I'm not done with mine, it's the contemplation of, “oh, should I be grabbing another one?” It can't just be about what the other person is doing because that just might not apply for you physiologically.
Lindsey Rodriguez:
If you want to be at the same level the person across from you feels, then the number of drinks just has to be different. That's just it. And it all depends on tolerance, of course, but gender is one of the biggest factors. And so it's usually by about half for women.
Robbie Shaw:
Why is that? Why is there so much pressure to keep up, to be like, to do the same?
Lindsey Rodriguez:
We are such a social species. We like to be part of the group and it's unfortunate that the marketing companies have normalized drinking so much to where we feel like we have to drink. And a lot of the pressure people feel comes from others directly, right?
They're either nudging you, or they're saying, “hey, you want another drink? I'm going to the bar.” But then a lot of that pressure also comes from what we think inside. The perception of what other people are doing is super strong and underestimated.
We don't realize how strong and pervasive this influence is. And it goes in every domain. You can apply to everything. And the really interesting part about that is that we overestimate how much other people drink consistently. It doesn't matter what your experience with drinking is, you're going to overestimate what other people drink.
I've done lots of different intervention studies where we just ask people, particularly heavy drinkers, “how many drinks do you think the typical college student at your campus drinks in one week?” And so if you guys were going to guess this, how many drinks would you say to typical college student drinks in one week?
Robbie Shaw:
God, I would absolutely overestimate it. A shitload.
Patrick Balsley:
Heavy drinker.
Lindsey Rodriguez:
So the average we get that people say is about 15. That's what their perception is that other people are drinking. So if you take all the college students, you take the normal one. And then we take that same college student population, and we take a representative sample of them.
And we just ask them, “how many drinks do you have on average when you drink?” And we get a big enough sample to where we can make pretty confident inferences that that's the truth for the whole college student population at that school. And the average for men is about five and for women is about four.
Sam Hampson:
It's so interesting that the whole theme is that what you believe is just as important, if not more important, than what actually is.
Lindsey Rodriguez:
That is the foundation of my research program.
Because when you think about it with relationships, there are objective criteria that define whether someone has an alcohol use disorder, right? And the way that they think about drinking now is more along the spectrum of risk.
But so much about relationships is perception. And all of you in relationships right now know that you can have the same conversation with the other person and walk away from that conversation, and it's like you had two totally different conversations. You have different perceptions of the same words being said. And when you apply that idea to drinking, it's not even about the objective level of risk that the person is presented with. It's whether their partner thinks it's a problem. And those two things are much less correlated than you think.
Robbie Shaw:
Perception is everything. There's a filter we all have and it's affected by so many different things. This is a wellness oriented podcast. So our perception is influenced by all the different aspects of wellness. It's just fascinating.
Lindsey Rodriguez:
It goes back to whether alcohol is going to be helpful or harmful to the relationship. With alcohol, it changes your perception and makes it more likely that you'll say or think something that you have been saying or thinking deep down. You just were inhibiting yourself from saying it out loud. That's one of the reasons why alcohol can lead to conflict and potentially aggression in romantic relationships, because it's not necessarily the aggression piece, but the communication and conflict. People bring up stuff that they've been hiding.
They just haven't had the right time or opportunity to speak up. And then you add alcohol to the mix and it's like, “oh, here's that thing that I've been meaning to tell you, but I'm going to say it in a way that is probably not going to be helpful for this conversation.”
How to have a healthy relationship with alcohol
Sam Hampson:
So when you think about relationships and best trends, best outcomes, best predictors of the ways for this to work, what's the key here for two people in relationship with alcohol and with each other? What's the healthy way to approach this?
Lindsey Rodriguez:
Oh, that's such a good question. And I think three things to keep in mind. One, why are you drinking? Two, how much are you drinking? And three, are you drinking together or apart?
We generally say there are four reasons why people drink alcohol, to be social and celebrate, to enhance the way they feel or the way that they appear to other people, to conform and fit in with a group, and to self-medicate or manage negative emotions.
And so when people drink for those social or enhancement reasons, it tends to be unrelated to relationship outcomes. I think it's fine. And if you're drinking to have a glass of wine, enjoy dinner with your partner, or you're just sitting at the end of the day and sort of unwinding with them and having a conversation, that's okay. That's a way to use alcohol for your benefit.
And the amount will come in a second. But if you're drinking to self-medicate, that tends to be the number one thing that's related to alcohol related consequences and to developing alcohol use disorders. So try and stay away from that. With the amount, obviously drinking less is better, or less is more.
Just having one or two drinks is a way that makes it more likely the relationship is going to benefit from it. And then obviously doing it together and not apart from each other. That makes it more connection building, rapport building, you're celebrating something.
When people perceive their partner drinks more with them than without them, they're more trusting of their partner. They have a lower concern that their partner has a problem. They think their partner drinks less and has fewer alcohol related consequences.
Aligning Wellness Journeys in Relationships
Robbie Shaw:
So let's transition a little bit... A lot of what I experience in my field of work are relationships getting to a point where there's a potential disorder.
All of a sudden, one of the partners has an issue and one of them is a little concerned and the other one is fighting it. And fast forward to where one of them has to make a pretty drastic change with their relationship with alcohol. I often see that not going very well. And I understand that it speaks to the health of the relationship. But it does seem like an avoidable consequence. Can you speak to that? What would be best practices when that circumstance arises?
Lindsey Rodriguez:
A really wise person told me once about collaborations with colleagues, that they work the best when both people want to drive down the same street, and when you see the same goal at the end of the street, and you're both working together as a team toward that goal.
So when people are battling addiction and it's up to them to decide whether they want to make a change in their behavior to address that problem, if they're with a partner who doesn't support that, then it may mean that that relationship is not going down the same street anymore. And it's not to say that people shouldn't be together, but I think if people are not seeing the same end goal, it can be problematic for how the relationship will turn out.
And if one person feels like they're constantly making a sacrifice for the other one, it can build up resentment, which is really the most dangerous thing any relationship can have as far as emotions. Hopefully, that partner can understand that trying to make this change to be healthier will mean that they can be healthier in all aspects of their life.
Sam Hampson:
I feel like you did a good job of just painting the picture of driving down the same street. When I've got that situation, when I'm seeing those folks in private practice, it's look, you can either have a drinking buddy or you can have a healthy partner. You do not get both when we're at this point on the spectrum.
So you've got to pick which one you really want and know where you're trying to kick that bucket down the road, because you're fighting pretty hard to have a drinking buddy. And let's be real clear. If you want a healthy partner, you have to grieve the loss of having your drinking buddy in this relationship.
And just pointing out to them, “I see you putting a lot of energy in trying to keep your drinking buddy. And do you get that that means they're unhealthy? Which one are we really working towards?”
Patrick Balsley:
I mean, from an overall wellness perspective, that's something that's not talked about enough in relationships. And then when they're not walking down the same path or the same road or headed in the same direction, it's like, “well, an easier way to deal with this than having this tough conversation, I'm just going to have a drink instead.”
Robbie Shaw:
I automatically go to the problematic side of drinking but like you've said, it is on a spectrum. And often because of the work we do, we take it to the extreme level when you don't need to think of it that way. So it's helpful to discuss it truly along the entire spectrum and not just the intense side of things.
Sam Hampson:
It's cool to hear your overall goal with your research is keeping focus on the fact that when people are healthy, their lives get better. And when I think about adjusting drinking based on that, it no longer matters whether my partner is having a beer tonight or not, because then I'm making a decision about what works for me. If the goal is happy, healthy, and better together, that's a lot easier for me to make my own decision about alcohol, knowing that I'm contributing to this bigger goal. If alcohol works for it, let's do that. And if alcohol doesn't, let's do that.
Lindsey Rodriguez:
For a heavy drinker, a partner drinking 20 drinks a week might not be a problem, but for someone who drinks one drink a week, their partner drinking five might be a problem. And so I think people enter into relationships with these notions about what alcohol should look like, and it changes as people get older. As people age, the amount of alcohol they drink goes down. I know my perception about what's normal for me now at 35 is very different than it was 10 years ago at 25. And what I want to do with alcohol and how I want to integrate alcohol in my life is very different now than it was 10 years ago.
Robbie Shaw:
Lindsay, thank you so much. I think we're going to wrap it now. That was just golden nugget after golden nugget. We cannot thank you enough for agreeing to participate and your enthusiasm throughout the whole thing. Thank you so much.
Lindsey Rodriguez:
So thankful to be here and for what you guys are doing. I'm so grateful that you're getting that message out there.
Examining Your Relationship with Alcohol
Robbie Shaw:
We like to make an effort to establish some takeaways for our listeners, some questions you can apply to your own lives. So we're going to start with those out there that are dating or may want to look back at their dating.
Some questions to consider as a takeaway are, if you're single, is alcohol enhancing your dating life? If not, how can you create variety in your dating life with non-alcohol related dates? Rock climbing, for instance. Or is there an intention you can set for how much you would like to drink on dates?
Sam Hampson:
I was really interested in hearing her talk through the basic questions to ask yourself when you're in partnership with alcohol. And one of the things that really stood out to me was her three different types of questions to ask yourself. The first one, why are you drinking?
And she used the word motive, which I love because it's in that wellness package of what we've been talking about, of what intention do you have around your drinking? Are you drinking in togetherness, in social aspects? Are you drinking because you're self-medicating? Are you drinking at or around something else?
It really brings some self-awareness to this. Ask yourself some questions. How much are you drinking? What is moderate drinking? What is high risk drinking? What does that actually look like?
And then are you drinking together or a part? And being able to be in conversation with your partner about this. What does it look like when we drink apart? What are the things I make up in my head when you're drinking away from me? And what is it like when we drink together? What do we enjoy about it? What do we not enjoy about it?
Patrick Balsley:
The question of why are you drinking is probably the most important question of this whole project that we've been doing. I feel like people don't ask themselves that ever just because alcohol is such an ingrained thing in our culture, especially when it comes to relationships.
Robbie Shaw:
That just speaks directly to the normalization piece and then when you apply it to relationships and you ask that question. Ask that question in general, but then ask it in various circumstances where it is so normalized.
Patrick Balsley:
But I also think that it's so important for us in relationships, and not necessarily romantic ones, but to ask these types of questions in the presence of people that we trust and that we're close with. And to have these conversations instead of having them in our head.
Sam Hampson:
I love that. Even some of the talks that we've had live on this podcast have altered the way I go about things. Instead of asking my best friend the other night if she wanted to come over and have a glass of wine, I was like, hey, do you want to come over after work? We can make dinner. I've got wine. I have beer.
You coming over to drink is not the purpose. It's you coming over so we can spend time. Oh, and by the way, I have food and I have alcoholic and non-alcoholic beverages to offer you.
Robbie Shaw:
The information and opinions shared on this podcast are solely those of the hosts and guests and are not a substitute for medical advice. If you feel like you may need professional help, here are some resources. For the substance abuse and mental health services administration hotline, call 1-800-662-4357 or visit smsa.gov. For listeners in the Charlotte North Carolina community, visit dilworthcenter.org or call 704-372-6969, or visit theblanchardinstitute.com or call 704-288-1097.